How can she talk about endorsing someone when there are crosses burning in Prince George as we speak!!!

Unfortunate that there is only onc woman now left in the race. Hedy has had her bad days, like most people but she has also contributed a lot to the people and city of Vancouver.

"Unfortunate that there is only onc woman now left in the race. Hedy has had her bad days, like most people but she has also contributed a lot to the people and city of Vancouver. "

Like alot of migranes and showing why it isn't good to wear a white shirt and leather pants.

Fried indeed! What a gong-show. The former Premier of Ontario who almost destroyed that Province's economy will now run to be PM?! His brother was a devout Chretienite. Big surprise.

It is not surprising that the Martini's and still battling the Chretienites. How drole, but very Grit.

I thought the Alliance freakshow in the Tories was bad enough, but this could top it.

The only hope to stop this is a solid Dion/Kennedy joining.

If not, Stephen Harper will be the PM through to the Olympics, unless Frank McKenna, Jean Charest or Bernard Lord decide to return some kind of reason to Ottawa.

Good riddance to my-hedy is Fried any time she leaves anything. Forever stupidity's lickspittle, she will find a home for her insanity soon, I'm sure.

I am amazed that Rae appears to be winning this thing, with this development coming on top of a Globe poll of delegates giving Rae combined first and second preference support of 40% compared to only 30% for Ignatief.

I guess Bob will be the Liberals' problem now, along with Ujjal Dosanjh and Chris Axworthy. Assuming he wasn't there for years as Ujjal was. The other great irony is that Buzz Hargrove, whose original move away from the NDP was 101% motivated by his fued with Rae, ... now says Rae should be chosen Liberal Leader! In fact the only real loss for the NDP to the Liberals in recent years was economist Paul Summerville, a genuinely bright individual.

Momentum? That's a pretty serious overstatement! From today's Toronto Star:

Graves noted that the bottom four candidates — Brison, Eglinton-Lawrence MP Joe Volpe, Toronto lawyer Martha Hall Findlay and Vancouver MP Hedy Fry — received only 6 per cent support as the first, second or third choice of respondents.

"(They) cannot be considered contenders," he said, adding the bottom four appeared to have little chance of having "any real impact" on the outcome of the vote.

Not a single respondent chose Fry.

"There were over 3,000 opportunities for people to pick her (as first, second or third choice)," said Graves.

"She literally got zero. I have never seen that in over 20 years of polling."

The Liberals meet in Montreal Nov. 28 to Dec. 3.

Never was much of a fan of Bob (the diplomat's son) Rae, especially when he masqueraded as a genuine left of centre type who actually cared about people who weren't born with a pass to Upper Canada College.

However, after reading responses here, especially from some of the lobotomy-ready regulars who have a hate on for anything left of Steve Harper, I could accept a Liberal leader named Rae, especially if it makes A.G. Tsakimus react again as he did above.

While people may chortle at Hedy Fry's choice of who she will support, I just about wet my pants as I roll about the floor after reading the rage spewing from old A.G.'s latest fit of distemper.

Someone wrote: "The former Premier of Ontario who almost destroyed that Province's economy will now run to be PM?!"

Eugene Parks responds: That destroyer was Brian Mulroney and 18% interest rates.

Ontarionians now remember Rae days as a balanced response and Harris' layoffs as deconstructive. Accordingly, Rae has political life in Ontario. Time changes perspectives and appears to have changed Ontario's view of Rae by large measure.

you have to remember that poll was done in Ontario and Quebec. She probably would have at least gotten some votes if they polled BC.

"Eugene Parks responds: That destroyer was Brian Mulroney and 18% interest rates. "

Good grief man, do you honestly believe that tripe? High interest rates were a product of a world economy that tanked in the early 1980's.

The recession of the 1980's was also in the United States.

Brian Baloney did a few dumb things, but he personally did not cause the 18% interest rates,
so the two facts are exclusive to each other.

"Ontarionians now remember Rae days as a balanced response and Harris' layoffs as deconstructive. Accordingly, Rae has political life in Ontario. Time changes perspectives and appears to have changed Ontario's view of Rae by large measure."

Yeh right so why didn't Rae last longer as Premier?

The Ontarians threw him into the garbage like
a bad cantaloupe.

I still find it fascinating, and really should be flattering to those involved, that people still believe that a couple of backwater provincial premiers were responsible for the world recession of the 90's...the power they must have had. What a tired joke.
Considering that neither BC or Ontario came no where near bankrupt and were still able to accomplish many good and lasting things (that the press shall never ever remind us of), the likes of Ray, Harcourt, Clark, should be given some credit.
I'm thinking Ray has been through the worst the world could throw, has taken his lumps, I'm sure learned from it, and would make a great P.M., that is for the majority of Canadians that did not vote Conservative last time, and likely never will!

Tom writes, " High interest rates were a product of a world economy that tanked in the early 1980's."

High interest rates in the US were a result of sky-rocketed military and deficit spending in the US by Reagan and Bush. Canada responded by spiraling Mulroney-deficit spending of its own and consequently high interest rates and unemployment in Canada. The rest of the world followed to some extent but only partially - for example, Britain cut spending and its economy recovered much earlier than Canada's.

Rae was tufted as were Harris's conservatives.

Today, Ontarionians can compare both against the backdrop of massive deficit conservative spending in NA in the 1980s and Harris' deconstruction after Rae. Against that backdrop, Rae looks like the moderate.

JJ writes, "I still find it fascinating, and really should be flattering to those involved, that people still believe that a couple of backwater provincial premiers were responsible for the world recession..."

Eugene Parks responds: Exactly JJ... generally speaking the premiers were responders.. in some cases better than others as BC's economy missed most of the world recovery.

It's pretty amazing that this person hiding behind 'bleedingheart' accuses Alex Tsakumis of distemper, when he has such a bizarre hatred for him. I actually thought Tsakumis gave very good perspective on the Bob Rae issue. I didn't notice one hint of distemper. I also think that 'bleedingheart' should come out and play with some honesty and not lie about people hoping that it will stick. If Bob Rae wins this contest the Liberals are finished for a long, long time.

A pox on all their houses. I think Canadians are tired of the twits running for the Liberals and the twits in all political parties in Canada. What a bunch of losers as their is not one politician in Canada today that is doing any good. Juat collect their stipend and ass kiss their leader. Fence posts with hair, could not have done worse!

No matter who wins the Liberal leadership, they will be the next Prime Minister of this country. Every once in a while we sort of go crazy and vote in some form of Conservative government. Be it Dief, Joe Clark or Lyin Brian( who showed up in the parliament buildings today and out pops Steve for a big reunion, but i digress) They hack a bunch of stuff and then get bounced to go lick their wounds for a decade or so. The present Government is against a lot of folks rights, but theirs are just great thank you very much. Steve's support is falling as more and more far right Christians are showing up which scares hell out of a lot of people. Bring back the lash, stop Same sex marriages, bring back work houses for kids and of course the death penalty for when the prisons get too full

"The present Government is against a lot of folks rights, but theirs are just great thank you very much. Steve's support is falling as more and more far right Christians are showing up which scares hell out of a lot of people. Bring back the lash, stop Same sex marriages, bring back work houses for kids and of course the death penalty for when the prisons get too full"

If this is what Liberals think, then this country will be in big trouble.

The fundamentalists do not make up the majority of the membership in the Conservatives.

Same sex marriage will be kept. It's up to the provinces, not the federal government to decide
if its kept, and no sane politician will remove a right once it is established in law.

There would be few people who think garbage such as Clifford Olsen, (and if found guilty, Robert Pickton) shouldn't be shot.

Coddling criminals isn't the best answer, since they know a soft hearted system when they see it and will take advantage of it.

The Liberals were right about bringing in the Gun Registry. Certainly helped in that shooting at Dawson College, didn't it? The gun was registered.

The Liberals need to wise up and toughen up on
law and order if they expect to win additional votes other than the soft hearted mallable membership they have now.

Grit guys argues: "The Liberals were right about bringing in the Gun Registry. Certainly helped in that shooting at Dawson College, didn't it? The gun was registered."

Eugene Parks responds: If we apply the implied logic to, say, speeding: we should abolish speeding laws since people speed and die as a result.

Proposal for a National Discussion in Response to Dawson College Tragedy:
----------------------
We should have a five (5) year moratorium on gun sales and transfers in Canada (including bans on all imports) and track on ammunition sales until we can develop and implement a gun control strategy that would improve the situation.

There are crosses in memorial to those lost to gun violence that are genuinely illuminated in family's hearts and minds by tragedy. We should honour that lose by seriously addressing the issue of gun violence.

"We should have a five (5) year moratorium on gun sales and transfers in Canada (including bans on all imports) and track on ammunition sales until we can develop and implement a gun control strategy that would improve the situation."

Talk about a dumb thought idea. Penalise the
law abiding citizens who use shotguns for hunting and those who lawfully target practice.

The current gun registry advocated by the Liberals simply does not work.

There are crosses in memorial to those lost to gun violence that are genuinely illuminated in family's hearts and minds by tragedy. We should honour that lose by seriously addressing the issue of gun violence.

Right Eugene. How about absolishing the faint hope clause, and anyone who uses guns in violent crimes gets an automatic minimal sentence of 10 to 15 years once found guilty.

If the accused is found guilty of murder, he or she gets life with absolutely no chance of parole.

Stiffen the penalties for using guns illegally.

I'm not advocating the US style freedom to bear arms, but there has to be this end to coddling people who commit crimes.

In regards to speeding...

..if the accused is found guilty of causing a fatal accident or drunk driving causes a fatality the accused is prevented from lawfully driving. For life.

...the accused's vehicle is taken away immediately if the speed caused an injurious
accident, or the police determine the vehicle was
a serious contributor to an accident.

Eugene we have to stop coddling criminals and those who break the law.

People are fed up with this soft hearted Liberal
mantra towards criminals. We don't want a police state, but we certainly should not put the rights of criminals above the victims, which is the state of affair now.

Hedy Fry and Bob Rae represent the left wing element of the Liberals. Would the Liberals want to go back to Trudeauesque law and order? Probably not.

GG is getting a little too excited. Anyone who has looked at law enforcement and criminology agrees that the facts are indisputably clear : only prevention will reduce the level of criminal activity. Prevention. Not more enforcement. Not longer mandatory sentences or more trials or prisons or executions or "getting tough" or public flogging or anything else.
If you provide people with an education and work to alleviate the effects of poverty (and we do a lot of that in this country)and don't declare war on suicidal peasant tribesmen you will gradually reduce the level of senseless violence in your society. Banning guns of every description is also worth a try.
Only cheap politicians pandering to narrow-minded bigots pretend otherwise. Would Harper give his life for his country on foreign soil? Or Rae or Ignatieff or Kennedy or Dion? They all had a chance to do so but chose another path. One which ended with them arriving snout-first in Ottawa from Florida, not feet-first in Petawawa from Kandahar.
Who is the mass murderer? Picton with 26 victims or Harper with 32 forces personnel (so far)and uncounted Afghani dead. Is it for anything besides improving his re-election chances?

Grit Guy writes, "Talk about a dumb thought idea. Penalise the law abiding citizens who use shotguns for hunting and those who lawfully target practice."

Eugene Parks responds: Have you made a logic leap? A five year sales freeze to figure out what to do would not interfere with duck hunters. It would give time to sort out who has what and come up with a better way to manage guns and related violence in Canada.

Grit Guy writes: "The current gun registry advocated by the Liberals simply does not work"

Eugene Parks responds: If we abolish everything does not work 100% all the time we would have nothing helping anything... including speed limits, cancer treatments, and conversations with friends. Note: the police say the registry is helpful.

Grit Guy responds: "..if the accused is found guilty of causing a fatal accident or drunk driving causes a fatality the accused is prevented from lawfully driving. For life. "

Eugene Parks responds: Post crime deterrence measures are *part* of crime management... direct prevention strategies are also part of the solution. Why ditch prevention strategies? [Aside: As to the specific measures for post crime deterrence I'm not commenting on them here other than to note that studies have been done regarding how long Canada puts violent offenders in jail relative to other democracies and reports have stated we are stiffer.]

Grit Guy asks: "How about abolishing the faint hope clause..."

Eugene Parks responds: You are now talking about how to manage prisons more than you are addressing deterrence. Note the title of the program "faint hope"... the program exists to keep violence within prison down and only dangles "faint hope" to motivate good behavior.

Grit Guy writes: "People are fed up with this soft hearted Liberal mantra towards criminals. "

Eugene Parks responds: can you prove liberals have a soft hearted mantra towards criminals and that people are sick of it? I think people want solutions (and don't blame liberals for violence).

"GG is getting a little too excited. Anyone who has looked at law enforcement and criminology agrees that the facts are indisputably clear : only prevention will reduce the level of criminal activity. Prevention. Not more enforcement. "

Exactly. If people do not respond to prevention and still commit the crime then punishment is in order. Correct punishment can be a deterrence.

Deterrence has to have penalties embedded otherwise deterence and prevention will not work.

In other words street racing will not be prevented unless there are penalties for it.

As for poverty, the Liberals have done very little to reduce it to signifcant levels other than direct govenrment money to more advocacy groups and studies.

"Not longer mandatory sentences or more trials or prisons or executions or "getting tough" or public flogging or anything else.

Didn't say I advocated excutions or public flogging, but coddling criminals is not the answer. prevention and deterrence are the tools,
but let's not coddle the criminal element.

"Banning guns of every description is also worth a try."

Yep and is the criminal element going to go "oh geez, I'd better turn in my handgun?

You would only affect the law abiding citizen by banning guns of every description.

Only cheap politicians pandering to narrow-minded bigots pretend otherwise.

Hence the Martin/Chretien Liberals and their insane gun control programme.

Would Harper give his life for his country on foreign soil? Or Rae or Ignatieff or Kennedy or Dion? They all had a chance to do so but chose another path.

Would Layton? Obviously not. He figures a talking to the Taliban would resolve everything.

"Who is the mass murderer? Picton with 26 victims or Harper with 32 forces personnel (so far)and uncounted Afghani dead.

Remember it was the Liberals, not Harper who sent CF forces to Afganistan. It was the Liberals who agreed to the extension of CF being in Afghanistan until 2009. There have been fatalities in other CF overseas missions over the time CF have been on UN assignments.

Picton is a mass murderer, since he personally committed the crimes.

"Is it for anything besides improving his re-election chances?"

Harper can improve his re-election chances if he does what the voters want and like, and the Liberals go back to their Trudeauesque criminal coddling policies.

Do you want the Taliban to spread to Pakistan and to India?

"Eugene Parks responds: Have you made a logic leap? A five year sales freeze to figure out what to do would not interfere with duck hunters. It would give time to sort out who has what and come up with a better way to manage guns and related violence in Canada."

Typical Liberal claptrap. The studies have already been written Eugene. You and I paid for those. The studies were done when the Liberals set the Gun registry in the first place.

There's no reason for additonal studies at taxpayer expense to pay researchers on a topic that has already been researched heavily.

"Eugene Parks responds: If we abolish everything does not work 100% all the time we would have nothing helping anything... including speed limits, cancer treatments, and conversations with friends. Note: the police say the registry is helpful."

Your logic on that is off the scale. Your tying in cancer treatment with abolition of penalties.

The police say it is 'helpful' but to what degree? 5% 10% if it was 80% helpful then the people would tolerate it. If it is helpful in only 5% of the total amount of measured applicable instances, then a review for its justification could be possible.

Eugene Parks responds: Post crime deterrence measures are *part* of crime management... direct prevention strategies are also part of the solution. Why ditch prevention strategies?

If the current prevention strategies do not work,
replacement is nessesary. Many prevention programmes are not working (hence the large volume of property crime).

Eugene Parks responds: You are now talking about how to manage prisons more than you are addressing deterrence. Note the title of the program "faint hope"... the program exists to keep violence within prison down and only dangles "faint hope" to motivate good behavior.

It was put in to coddle to the NDP and left wing Liberals when it came to abolishing capital punishment in the 1970's. I'm not an advocate for the return of captial punhishment, but "life in prison" means exactly that. Life. No parole.

If you do the crime do the time. That's a deterrence.

The clause should be taken out for good.

Grit Guy writes: "People are fed up with this soft hearted Liberal mantra towards criminals. "

Eugene Parks responds: can you prove liberals have a soft hearted mantra towards criminals and that people are sick of it? I think people want solutions (and don't blame liberals for violence).

The evidence is in the soft hearted minimal sentences that are handed out.

Compare John Les (Conservative) with Wally Oppal (Liberal).

People want solutions. They don't want to have their house or car broken into and then see the poor sap get off on a light sentence.

Look at the cry baby street racer who tried everything to prevent himself from being deported to India, and eventually failed and was
rightly placed kicked out of the country.

Pretty slim pickin's in the Liberal leadership

Grit Guy asks us all to think about the great John Les. He is the man who will not re-introduce photo radar because he has a greater duty to electoral politics and the Liberal share of the youth male vote than he does to deterring speeding, preventing accidents, and reducing casualties.

Such a perverse scale of values should surprise no one. When Les was Mayor of Chilliwack the Trans Canada Hwy featured several bill-boards inviting everyone to phone the Mayor's office for some personalized biz advice. Pure politics, nothing more. Just a way to use tax dollars to bolster the re-election fund.

Grit Guy writes: Your logic on that is off the scale. Your tying in cancer treatment with abolition of penalties."

Eugene Parks responds: You've made a factually false statement above that does not in any reflect what I said. No where did I in anyway say abolish penalties.

On the other hand, you rightly noted that studies have been done and one conclusion was the need for a better gun registry. And, the registry works, in part, as per the testimony of law enforcement. (Aside: objections have primarily centered around the cost for the registry and not the need for a comprehensive registry.) Nevertheless, more solutions to the issue of gun violence is needed. So, freeze the sale of guns for five years until we work something better out. Allowing the status quo to continue is not working. Further, removing one part of our prevention strategy is highly likely to make the situation worse.

"Grit Guy asks us all to think about the great John Les. He is the man who will not re-introduce photo radar because he has a greater duty to electoral politics and the Liberal share of the youth male vote than he does to deterring speeding, preventing accidents, and reducing casualties. "

Photo radar is a deterrent if it is set properly,
but the NDP did such a dismal job with it, the public anger over it was huge and would never advocate its return so you can blame your NDP friends for its demise.

"Such a perverse scale of values should surprise no one. When Les was Mayor of Chilliwack the Trans Canada Hwy featured several bill-boards inviting everyone to phone the Mayor's office for some personalized biz advice. Pure politics, nothing more. Just a way to use tax dollars to bolster the re-election fund."

Not really Budd. It was a mechanism of advertising the fact that Les ran an open mayor's office. Who would you rather have as Mayor for Chilliwack? A person like John Les or
Derek Corrigan of Burnaby, who is an example of
the kind of Mayor people should not have.

In the instance of Chilliwack, More with Les was
there.

"On the other hand, you rightly noted that studies have been done and one conclusion was the need for a better gun registry. And, the registry works, in part, as per the testimony of law enforcement. "

Emphasis in part, but to what degree and aspect?

"Nevertheless, more solutions to the issue of gun violence is needed. So, freeze the sale of guns for five years until we work something better out."

Why not through your logic ban driving until the
aspect of speeding/street racing is worked out?

Not going to work Eugene.

The gun violence can worked with more stiffer penalties against those found guilty. A strong penalty is a deterrence.

Allowing the status quo to continue is not working. Further, removing one part of our prevention strategy is highly likely to make the situation worse.

The Liberals did not help the situaiton with Chretien's idiotic Gun Registry.

But I usppose Eugene has all the answers and is the Oracle of Truth of direction for the New Liberal Party led by Rae.