Track Green Party leadership change with popular support in the elections. You will see that the more right the party swings the more support it gets. The unions will always support NDP, the super-riches will always donate to liberals, and the middle class will always choose Conservatives.

How can they convince people that they teir values are realistic without hurting others? Dont promise free education or carbon tax levy because they make you sound crazy. My suggestion would be to endorse libertarian ideolgoy on issues such as tax cutting, deregulation of all social policies and investment in education and technology. Just compete for the centrist votes, otherwise this party will never set a foot in Ottawa.

FHK writes: "The unions will always support NDP, the super-riches will always donate to liberals, and the middle class will always choose Conservatives."

Eugene Parks responds: Facts please.

Conservatives are the protest and anti-establishment party... examples of facts: Def the Chief, Clark, Murlroney first term, Manning, Harper, (and your libertarian philosophy). All those leaders gained power via the protest and anti-establishment vote. When in the mood to protest, the country turns to the so-called conservatives for a moment... but just the moment.

Liberals are the "mind the store" party. Most Canadians are not anti-establishment and think canada is generally ok. For good managment with "nice store front" Canadians typically turn to the Liberals because they are not anti-establishment like the conservatives. Example of facts: The liberals are in power 7 of 10 years because they run to "mind the store" and have a "friendly store front".

[Aside: Canada does not have a "super-rich" class like the US, we are a social democratic country and 2/3rds have voted that way since Pearson]

NDP is the radical change agent: examples of facts: Tommy Douglas and healthcare, CPP minority government, evnviromental law etc. Canadians don't want radical change agents in power but want their ideas and hence supported/gave minority governments with NDP having signifcant say (but only from time to time).

Centrist voters have a libertarian ideology?

CN Rail screwing the ranchers, well that's Gordon Campbell's free enterprise for you!

"The unions will always support NDP, the super-riches will always donate to liberals, and the middle class will always choose Conservatives."

Posted by FHK on September 2, 2006 06:09 PM

If unions will always support the NDP, how does FHK explain the activities of Buzz Hargrove and the CAW? And since when have the Tories been the party of the middle class? That's the niche the Liberals occupy, as well as the super rich, the only correct observation FHK makes.

Another, unrelated observation. Todd Littman has written papers on the social cost of the automobile, in particular regarding "induced traffic demand". It's undoubtedly something worth considering, but given the stage of development BC is actually at, especially population densities, it's hard to imagine a rail system working at any acceptable level of subsidy outside the GVRD.

Furthermore, if the consumer/taxpayer demand is for vehicles and highways, at what point does government have an obligation to service that demand, as opposed to providing alternative transport modes that the public is not interested in? To what degree is the choice to be made by government, and to what degree is it made by the consumer and the market?

When I read Littman's paper, I didn't see these questions addressed at all. It's just taken for granted that government plans the infrastructure and the consumer accepts that mode and uses it. The notion that government might build something, and then have little traffic on that mode, while others are clogged, didn't enter into Littman's analysis. There's an unspoken assumption there that part of the job is for government to raise fuel taxes to several times their present levels, resulting in the kind of $20 per gallon prices that are envisaged in the fictional Clooney movie Syriana. That will finally succeed in "getting people out of their cars" (note the Soviet 5-year plan tone to that aphorism?). That it will also get the government out of office has nothing to do with it according to planners who adhere to the Littman theory of transport economics.

Eugene Parks, you want to know who the super-riches are? Check out Paul Martin's donor list then you will know what I mean and stop being so ignorant, you should know as an ex-tory that conservatives have always been counting on support from common middle class folks.(No comment on NDP because majority of Canadians think they are crazy)

As for liberals buying their votes into keeping their power for those few years, I will make no comments on that, Conservatives on the other hand have become the estalishment and are enjoying much higher support than any other party. If you think Chretien being in power was so wonderful for Canadians, you should have jumped then, otherwise whatever comments you make regarding both parties would just be, to quote from the title of this thread, "A bunch of bull".

FHK writes, "Eugene Parks, you want to know who the super-riches are? Check out Paul Martin's donor list then you will know what I mean and stop being so ignorant..."

Eugene Parks responds, I actually said, "Canada does not have a "super-rich" class like the US, we are a social democratic country and 2/3rds have voted that way since Pearson"... which is fact.

As for donor lists, I went through them when investigating the CPC's convention-donation-gate and the cheque-swapping scandel: As is public record, Steve Harper did not disclose his donors in 2004, the CPC still has to disclose records for 2005 (convention-gate) and 2006 (the election). Of the records that are publically available at the elections Canada website, the very "rich" are not a factor - except through media ownership, who were mostly Harper backers last election. I speak based on fact and research.

FHK writes, "...you should know as an ex-tory that conservatives have always been counting on support from common middle class folks.(No comment on NDP because majority of Canadians think they are crazy)"

Eugene Parks responds, the majority of Canadians do not think the NDP are crazy (your comment to the contrary is just cheap hack spin for the CPC). As for "knowing" that the conservatives count on the middle class, I *know* the opposite. The protest vote was/is the source of CPC electoral strength - has been for 50 years. Currently, the CPC does not have the respect of the middle class hence the no show for the CPC (conservatives) in urban Canada the last several elections. The protest vote was up last time due to Adscam... hence more seats for the protest party - the CPC.

"the CPC's convention-donation-gate and the cheque-swapping scandel"
Again, no comment on your unfounded allegations (/"facts")like usual.

"the majority of Canadians do not think the NDP are crazy"
Actually most do, otherwise they would have turned Canada into a Cuba second coming long ago.

I am glad we still have the support from the middle class and we will continue to defend their interests by commiting ourselves to give more taxes back to their pockets. We will be able to do it more efficiently once we win the next election with a majority in Ottawa.

FHK, could you explain what kind of people you have in mind when you use a phrase like "common middle class folks"? It's seems to be a bit of an amalgam of working class ("common" and "folks") and professionals ("middle class").

If by middle class we mean university educated, licenced professionals such as doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers, accountants, and university and college teachers and some other smaller groupings like veterinarians, chiropractors, etc., and if the context is how they vote in BC federally, I would be willing to guess that the support among a middle class so defined is divided, with about 40% shares going to both Liberals and Conservatives, and 20% to the NDP. But that's just a guess, I haven't seen any reliable polling data on this subject, have you? Has anyone?

I will take another guess. Whatever the support levels may be right now, or at the time of the January federal election, Tory support among this group will take a serious nose dive if the federal government doesn't renew the licence for the safe injection sites. A decision like that would be interpreted as an affront to professionals everywhere, turning down evidence and analysis in favour of untutored belief and notions of propriety. It would be interpreted as clear evidence that the Neanderthals in the party have considerable influence, and will get there way more often than not.

FHK writes, ""the CPC's convention-donation-gate and the cheque-swapping scandel" Again, no comment on your unfounded allegations (/"facts")like usual."

Eugene Parks responds: According to Kingsley and Elections Canada (EC) convention-donation-gate allegations have merit and EC is investigiting. That is public record... on the record... from EC... their allegations, not mine. I forwarded supporting evidence.

FHK, claims the NDP is crazy... that is his public claim and he claims that the rest of the country feels the same, which FHK presents without evidence.

FHK further claims that the CPC has the support of the middle class, which he presents without evidence... election results contradict his claim - as do the polls.

Eugene Parks interprets: CPC party hacks are not working from the facts.

Budd Campbell writes, "... A decision like that would be interpreted as an affront to professionals everywhere, turning down evidence and analysis in favour of untutored belief and notions of propriety."

Eugene Parks responds: Here again the CPC is not working from the facts; professionals do indeed take exception to the untutored beliefs that form CPC dogmas on this topic. Tragically, CPC dogmatic belief prevents them from distinquishing:

A.) users, who have a health issue,
B.) criminal pushers, and
C.) community social issues

CPC dogma lumps all of the above into one crimial issue - an approach that has not improved the situation for nearly 50 years.

Solutions must be founded in fact. Unfortunately, the CPC, and its party hacks, are not working from the facts. We need a serious alternative to the CPC factless NeoCon philosphy on this topic.

Eugene Parks, I feel pretty tired towards your fact creation phenomenon and I will promise to stop making comments because that is simply too taxing on my time.

As for NDP being crazy and tory being the favourite party for the middle class, you may not believe it yet, but trust me, once we form the majority government next time, you may well have to.

As for Green Party, I wish them the best of luck, and as they move right, they are starting to gain popularity and I hope they will keep moving in the right direction.