Quite frankly, by sending a copy of the email to Sean Holman, Jim Collins was displaying why he was referred to as a petulant child.

mmmmm..I see the original food fight article from Oct. 7 has been restored without the thread. There were 107 posts...where are they and why are they gone? I cut and pasted a copy of the thread to a Word document. If anybody would like a copy I will be happy to email them one.

While not a Tory myself, I know and quite like a number of them. They have to be embarrassed by the crap coming out of the Victoria wing.

What a bunch of maroons.

If you can't even have lunch with each other, how in the heck do you run a party together?

BRIAN: Brothers! Brothers! We should be struggling together!
FRANCIS: We are! Ohh.
BRIAN: We mustn't fight each other! Surely we should be united against the common enemy!
EVERYONE: The Judean People's Front?!
BRIAN: No, no! The Romans!
EVERYONE: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
FRANCIS: Yeah. He's right.

Bob, LOL... more true than you know.

The election will be fought over national vision... as it should be.

The CPC think it will be about being anti-PM, and anti-the-anti-flavour-of-the-meeting-of-the-moment, that is the Harper understanding of "leading". Locally, we are not likely to see a platform with much vision other than anti this or that. But the common front to be tackled forus all is obvious:

1. enviromental issues (greening cities, eco-system management)
2. healtcare (timely and effective)
3. energy (renewable mostly)
4. saftey and security
5. aborignal issues (note how many times this has been in the papers over the last year)

Positive policies, more than just bashing, with concrete attempts at moving these issues forward will win the day. Now that PM is formally declared fully innocent, the Liberals will be perfectly happy to see the opposition attack and innocent man whilst they present constructive policies on the above... the Liberals can see a positive path to a majority government that could potentially move the CPC to third or fourth in the house.

The CPC policies on the above are nearly high-schoolish... Stephen Harper is nearly void of ideas in these areas... And localy, the CPC is locked in anti-government rehtoric and so void of brain cycles dedicated to looking for constructive policies ideas that help Victorians.

Yes, at best the local CPC is engaged in a food fight. More seriously, they are engaged in ignorant rants on aborignal issues, the environement, healthcare, economics, juridictional disputes and community-community discussions.

The CPC must dump Stephen Harper and reform itself both locally and nationally.

Oh thank God. For a while there I thought Eugene might not post on this one, but seeing as he knows absolutly nothing about it I knew he just had to.

Thanks for keeping the streak alive!

And for the record, we must snuff out the Judean People's Front as they are almost as much a threat to the People's Front of Judea as are the Judean Popular People's Front. Damned splitters...

Andrew

In the spirit of this thread's title I've copied some of your output from the original food fight forum:

"I trust that Jim Collins will join Eugene in obscurity shortly. His childish and destructive behaviour is a huge detriment to the Conservative Party.
For the record, I've never been to either lunch. I have something that usually makes us conservatives unique: a job!"

Very tiny wit Andrew..also very telling. It's no secret that I don't like the CPC but you just slagged the Octagon as a bunch of political diletantes while revealing that you think only people who work 9-5 hold real jobs.

Quelle surprise...another CPC drone demonstates their lack of smarts in public.

Ah sleepswithangels, the only contributor to this blog with less brain cells than Eugene. Welcome swa, now we just need a slightly decomposed rodent to chime in and raise the quality of debate.

Actually, I must contradict my earlier statement on the lunch group in question. I was fortunate enough to join them for lunch two weeks ago as I was off work going to school (gasp... a conservative STUDENT? the horror!) and had some spare time between classes. The company was charming and the aptmosphere delightful. I was most happy that the experience wasn't poisened by Jim Collins' unwelcome presence and given how wonderful these lunches seem to be I can understand why someone as annoying as him would be asked to not return.

So the Octagon was behind Logan Wenham's campaign and Troy De Sousa's nomination bid.

Heavy hitters, these Octagon chaps.

Since Andrew McVie likes to accuse others of having low brainpower, how will he manage to explain to his tory masters why he treated them to a backhanded slap here by saying he had never attended the Octagon lunch before because "he has a job"? I guess that means the Octagon are just a bunch of wasters...quelle surprise..again.

The following quote from your last bout with verbal diarhea will no doubt soon apply to you.

"I can understand why someone as annoying as him would be asked to not return."

Being an old running-mate of both Troy and Logan, I'd love to know where the Octagon currently is so I can drop in sometime.

As to the current political situation, would it be selfish of me to NOT want an election anytime soon? The more I think of it, the more I like the current situation; the 1000-lb ox that is the Liberal Party kept in line with a choke-chain around it's neck held firmly by Jack Layton, giving it a good yank now and then to keep it going in the right direction. And in the background, we see the separatist Bloc and the Canada-hating Leader of the Opposition fuming impotently over gay marriage and stuff like that.

I've had worse dreams.

Shannon,

You make a good point... a very good point.

For a minority parliment to benefit Canada the non-government parties have to put policy positions on the table that benefit all Canadians. So far neither the BLOC nor the CPC have done that. To some limited degree the NDP have (from a leftest perspective).

But the Center leaning Liberals will not allow themselves to be pushed too far left as they now have a clear path to a majority government. If the NDP pushes its agenda too much, the Liberals will "conveniently" be short a few members in the house a few members and the government will fall.... And the question before the nation will be thus:

Do you hold an innocent man accountable for the sin of another... and in so doing do you let a either the left or the radicial right hold power over your life instead?

Right now, the Liberals are in the drivers seat... the NDP would be wise to continue to push its agenda, but in an "reasonable" way. Stephn Harper would be wise to hold parliment together until he has a Canada positive idea that he can begin selling to Canadians and push onto parliment and make as a brand new election issue... the BLOQ wants what it wants so has to go now to the people now as time is working against them.

Jim Collins should grow up. If he wants to have lunch with his wife, go for it! Not everyone wants to climb over each other to dine with Jim.

Likewise, if a separate group of friends want to get together for lunch, let them!

This whole food fight is pretty darn pathetic.

Andrew,

I don't really see why you care about the CPC...

In your case, note 2/3rds of the CPC is strictly against SSM marriage with no mention of civil unions. Fifty percent are officially strictly against all abortion. Most CPC members have little to no interest in municipal politics. All of these positions stand radically different to your own beliefs. How do you rationalize being a local conservative board member?

In my case, I could no longer rationalize away all the local anti-comments, national lack of leadership on issues like the environment, healtcare, economic policy, aborignal issues... I just got tired of try to rationalize away all the anti-comments and the lack of a constructive agenda.

I think if you look into yourself, you too will see the disjoint between what you honestly believe and what is actaully being offered locally and what is abscent nationally. Start looking to be part of the solution... solutions do exist and they are worth fighting for.

Blind paristan insults serves only to harm the country and contributes nothing to bettering Canada.

Eugene,

At no point have I said the CPC is perfect. It is undoubtably the best choice. Not only is Stephen Harper a brilliant man who would be a real contender to challange Brian Mulroney's title as "Best Prime Minister Ever" but their policy book is full of very sound changes to this badly failing country.

Even to those who don't see the CPC policy as generally sound, they are the only national party with a shred of integrity and common decency. Prime Minister Layton is now a partner-in-crime with the LIEberals and so Canadians have only two legitimate choices: Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party, or the half-baked fruit cake Green Party.

As for your above mention of SSM, the funny thing is that you're so bigoted you never bothered to ask my opinion: I personally agree with your position on SSM, but I'm not the one claiming to be moderate here.

On abortion, you flat-out lie when you use the word "official." The party has one policy on abortion and it is beautifully simple: we will not support any bill that seeks to limit access to abortions. That's party policy, end of story.

Finally, quit pretending you left the party on your own terms. No one believes you. The whole word (thanks in part to Mr. Holman’s little gossip site) knows that you were chased out of the party and off the board by a pitch-fork clenching mob, including myself. As a media-whore, you were an embarrassment to the party and the board, and we were sick of being harassed by your far-right e-mail rants.

You're not fooling anyone Eugene, so crawl back under that rock if you please.

Andrew,

You are becoming very self-contradictory. First you say my postion on SSM is wild-eyed fundie wierd and now you say it is the same as yours. Are you now saying you are wild-eyed fundie weird?

On abortion, the party is something you do not understand very well. The delegates voted... in contrast, the membership is easily 50% against any abortion... just talk to the membership. I've directly talked to over 2,000 members. I know of what I speak.

As for leaving the local Octagoners... yes, the Octagoners and I don't see eye to eye on much. I'm proud of that!

As you should know, the Octagoner had no power to remove my membership nor my board position. Nevertheless, the constant anti-rants were sufficient to convince me of what they stood for and that we were of different minds and goals... so I left freely. And, if you search your convictions you would do the same.

Right now, the CPC is taking the country down the path that the voters should punish an innocent man for the sins of another. That is a very harmful path to take a country down. That is a concept of justice and civilized government that we must fight. In contrast, see how the NDP is quickly trying to turn the debate to heathcare. If the CPC had any integrity it would likewise turn the national debate to something constructive that does not involve sacrificing the innocent to gain power.

I've agrued with hundreds of conservatives for 2 years for the CPC to go positive and not to put all its marbles into claiming that PM PM is a bad person... now that we know he is innocent my message is that much more relivant on the national level.

Locally, I think the deafness caused by the anti-rants still has to be shut down before there is any hope of going positive... but Andrew, I think there is some hope for you. I think you can see the shallowness and harmfullness of the anti-rants... there is nothing in it but harm for Canada. Go positive. Canada needs it. Canada deserves it. Get out from under the negative crowd and start working on positive solutions for Canada.

The irony of you railing against negativism is just too much Eugene.

The idiocy of you saying that the majority-favoured delegate-selected policy on aborition isn't how "the party truly feels" makes you even more hilarious. Is your sole source of "information" the CBC? The party is the membership, the membership delegated their voice to the delegates, the delegates said no change to abortion law: end of story.

As for Paul Martin being innocent, I think Rex Murphy's monologue last night summed it up best. Justice Gomery would have us believe that Paul Martin is the only virgin working in the whore house, and the only saint on the pirate ship. I say bullshit.

All that is proven by Paul Martin's "exoneration" in *this* scandal is that he is guilty of an even worse scandal: gross neglect of duty as Finance Minister. As if it wasn't enough that he lied for years about a budget that was never balanced, he has now been proven to have been looking the other way while money was pissed away into Liberal coffers.

Maybe you're just positioning yourself to run for the next Liberal nomination after David "pick a fucking riding already" Mulroney gets trounced in Victoria this spring.

Andrew,

Good luck to you and your political strategy of misplacing blame and shame. In contrast, I for one do not want a government founded on a mandate of persecuting the innocent.

What 43% of the voters (enough for a majority) might conclude, is that Chretien really did run a secret opporation out of the PMO... just as the judge said the evidence showed... and therefore that PMO and related people should be pursued.

Adscam was deliberately shielded from scrutiney. Gomery was clear that the former PMO was running the show.

Andrew, someday when you are actually working in an organization, you will see how easy it is for some to run rouge operations under the noses of everyone else - even those trying to run a clean ship.

Gomery was precise in identifying who was doing what from where .... and who clearly knew what and who did not have the power to know otherwise.... because diversion happens all the time when someone in power is determined to do something in secret... the former PMO new how to play the game... and now *his* team has been caught... according to Judge Gomery.

Ok I'm confused....Aren't we talking about lunch and childish behaviour? And I thought this Eugene guy was a Conservative....or a member of the party but a hater of the local board...but is he actually a Liberal then?

No matter how the "octagon" tries to spin this, they have outed themselves here as a petty bunch of small time right wingers thanks partly to the honest efforts of Eugene Parks to shed light on the repugnant mindset that typifies this group of CPC "power players". I use that term very loosely because while they do seemingly have the ear of a variety of CPC MP's and officials, apparently they don't see a problem with perpetuating a hostile relationship with the local riding association.

In my experience this sort of negative nastiness only develops around deep seated ideological differences. I'm inclined to believe Mr. Parks contention that the "octagon" are anti abortion, anti native rights, anti homosexual etc. etc.

Does anyone else think it's funny that Andrew claims to have a real job, but has time to write about 2,000 words in comments on this site?

Dillon, you are an illiterate dingbat if you can't notice that I pointed out above that I am now a student with a bit of spare time.

Dillion/Republican,

I also believe they tend to be anti-french, anti-north, anti-ontario, anit-altantic canada... There really isn't one group they are anti. They see it as their job to fight against the entire Canadian mosaic. I believe they want to free Canada from the "burden" of these communities.

Further, they see government as a necessary evil to inflict on the community to curb evil - I've heard that directly from the mouth of some of them [Some call it Berkian Conservatism; others among them call it their version of libertarianism]. Accordingly, they tend to be against any community efforts to grow that are supported by government dollars.

In contrast, I think those seeking to be government should hope to make goverment a constructive voice of the community for the community. Government is part of the community and should be structured to support the community.

I believe the local conservatives are unsupportive of communities like aborignal communities, french communities, altantic communites etc. I personally don't think these claims are just bad press; I've presonally concluded that their policital agenda is to cut these communities loose because they don't want to share in our common responsibility as Canadians to support each other. That is my personal feelings of where they are at.

So, you are correct; We are definitely of different minds ideologically.

The mindset you describe is a common one which typically is shared by those who wish Canada was more like the USA. They drool over the tax rates there without bothering to notice the prevalence of guns and the astronomical murder rate.

They are also enamoured of America's imperial designs on the planet. I think this sort of individual started out in life as the schoolyard bully or was one of the bully's cowardly enablers.

Republican,

Blanket statements about the US make no sense.

Nevertheless, it appears true that the US went to war based on fabricated evidence and apparently Stephen Harper supported George Bush in that decision. Bush and Harper are closely aligned. So, on that association the current CPC leadership has to take its lumps or disassociate itself from an obvious mistake.

Thanks for the pscyoanalysis RWD, you just saved me $200 for this afternoon's session.

Next week on Public Eye Online: Jack Layton's Oedipus Complex and how it relates to his desire to screw over the country.

AM
So you visualize Canada as a matriarch.
I thought your type was more in tune with the concept of a 'fatherland'. I'm pretty sure Sharper the Harpy would be more comfortable goose stepping his way into power over a country dominated by paternalistic/mysogynist excess.

Luckily for Canadians..he will never have that opportunity. By the time we do have an election CPC/CCRAP support will be halfway down the toilet bowl as Canadians are not as easily led as they once were. Today's semi manufactured Ipsos blip is an aberration...much like the polls in June 2004.

Republican,

Newswires are now reporting that US VP Cheney was requesting support for torture of prisoners. The

Harper will have to do a hard turn to distance himself from Bush at some point... the longer he waits the more damage the eventual flip-flop will do. Or more seriously, if he does not distance himself, being associated with Bush-Cheney is going to really blacken conservatism in Canada.

Unfortunatly, Harper may not turn at all; instead he appears to be spending all his efforts trying to pursue the innocent rather than move forward with policy that all Canadians can rally behind.

Harper is not one to admit he was wrong, but at some point he has to admit he was wrong to get so close to Bush... Iraq II, manufactured evidence, secret prisons, and now torture are causing even the right to run. Senator McCain is leading the charge against the practice of torture and the demand for the Geneva convention to be used with all prisoners of war... Harper / Layton / Martin should be standing up and likewise demand the US stand against uncivilized practices.

Ok again...what does ANY of this have to do with LUNCH?

EP

You will not see Harper back away from his subservience to the Republican Party. Harper's leadership of the CPC was backed by the 'Calgary School'..a group of political scientists led by Tom Flannigan, a far right American. Here is a link to an article about Harper and this group and their aims.

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/200410041306150

Here are select quotes from the essay:

"There is little doubt that our present Conservative party is a logical and predictable extension of the Social Credit and Reform and Alliance line and lineage. Such a tradition, as I mentioned above, has strong American conservative republican tendencies. The present Conservative party of Canada, predictably and consciously so, has many an affinity with the American empire. When the Progressive Conservative party of Canada merged with the Reform party, the more progressive and High Tory aspects of the Progressive Conservative party vanished and the more republican tendencies came to win the day."

"The sooner that Canadians realize that the Calgary School and tribe are American republican conservatives, compradors and apologists for the empire, the sooner we can say such a clan is not deeply Canadian in any significant sense. Our history, at its noblest and best, has been one of questioning and interrogating the empire. It is a sad day when we bow low to the USA and numb our critical faculties. Such a prostration is an insult to those who have fought long and hard to keep the True North strong and free."

I wrote the TC when Mark Milke (now also of Calgary and the Flannigan school) wrote that Harper was too NDPish... "how radical is radical if the right thinks Harper is too left". I wish the TC would have had the courage to publish that letter.

We should be sure enough in our Canadian identity that we can find a healthy balanced way without the need for either the US's manifest destiny, or Mexico's former Marxist way, or Europe's former millennium of conflict. We can do it right and our own way if we choose.

Flannigan and Harper are one and the same... I agree that that alone is enough to ditch Harper.

Someone was wondering what this thread has to do with the food fight... well... maybe everything...

The fight is apparently deeply ideological, and about running democratic nomination races, and its about respecting Canada's communities, its about reaching out to community, it's about officially being welcoming.

I think its about the backroom boys versus an open event, it's about doing politics in public so that things like what got going in Quebec don't get going in the back rooms of BC, it's about just saying no to whisper campaigns and yes to open discussions and public access to politics.

I believe you have watched CPC board members hack nearly to death their own official public outreach lunch... in favour of an invite only event... and to me that just about says it all.

Time for some new kind of conservative politics

Eugene Parks

If it wasn't for Bush and Mulroney apologists like the Asper brothers, Canadians would not have quickly forgotten that Peter Mackay sold out the Progressive Conservatives in one of the most disgusting displays of backstabbing since Lyin' Brian sold us all out with the FTA.

Now we have an ultra right wing CPC who would like us to believe that Harper is actually a moderate. Yeah..and Dick Cheney isn't really a self serving war monger.

Greetings from the oil sands !!!

I honestly dont know why these guys cant let the petty squabbles die

Eugene , I dont know u , but it sounds like u need a new party to join

As for the Octogon , I have attended many times , and miss going. It is quite frankly , an enjoyable way to end the week with some good food and good people having intersting and engaging conversation.

DOnt make it it out to be more than it is. There is a variety of opinion and ideology in this group . For example : Some are monarchists , some think we should be a republic, some loved STV , some hated it , some are BC Liberal , some arent. What we could agree on is that it is always stimulating discussion !

Lets move on

D.

Greetings from the oil sands !!!

I honestly dont know why these guys cant let the petty squabbles die

Eugene , I dont know u , but it sounds like u need a new party to join

As for the Octogon , I have attended many times , and miss going. It is quite frankly , an enjoyable way to end the week with some good food and good people having intersting and engaging conversation.

DOnt make it it out to be more than it is. There is a variety of opinion and ideology in this group . For example : Some are monarchists , some think we should be a republic, some loved STV , some hated it , some are BC Liberal , some arent. What we could agree on is that it is always stimulating discussion !

Lets move on

D.

Oilsands wrote:

"DOnt make it it out to be more than it is. There is a variety of opinion and ideology in this group . For example : Some are monarchists , some think we should be a republic, some loved STV , some hated it , some are BC Liberal , some arent. What we could agree on is that it is always stimulating discussion ! "

That is your definition of diversity???

Yes, until both Harper and McKay are gone and the local CPC reforms itself, I'm looking for a progressive conservative party that is outward looking and not inward turning.

Eugene, no one believes you when you talk about reforming the Conservative party to make it more palatable to your bizarre desires.

Once you decide if you're a Nazi, a Dipper, or somewhere in between, pick a part of the spectrum and try to influence it rather than being a crazed voice ranting in the wilderness.

As for me reforming the conservative party, you should listen more carefully. I do not think it can be reformed until both Stephen Harper and Peter McKay are gone. As for local reform, I don’t think you guys even see the problem yet. I think the CPC may have already gone too far to be reformed without a complete changing of the guard – both locally and nationally. Even then, I’m no entirely sure the CPC can be reformed. The next generation of “conservatives” may inherent the negative community perspective from the current far right leadership - resulting in the CPC never getting out of its anti-community perspective.

Sadly, the current ideological position of the CPC is one of only individualistic and government free solutions. They see no positive role for government other than to curb harm/evil. The CPC does not see its role as becoming a government that facilitates solutions but rather as a group that removes government. Consequently, the CPC will not move to the center-right, rather it will continue to hold to the right and further flirt with the far right… for some time to come… which makes it a nearly an unredeemable party. The CPC is ideologically opposed to solutions of the middle.

Nationally, both center-left and center-right politics are being held together by the Liberals. Either the NDP and the CPC genuinely start claiming some of that territory or both will see a few more cycles of Liberal majority governments. The likely result of that is more CPC re-organizing - again and again - until one day it realizes (maybe realizes) that going every more right is just nonsense and that going to the center is actually a good thing. But that is currently a very very long way off. And it is not necessarily ever going to happen under the name conservative in Canada as the very far right keep flocking to the name and co-opting its politics.

We need moderate politics of center-left, center, and center-right. Neither the NDP nor the CPC show signs of moving onto that turf - Stephen Harper least of all.

...

Have a nice weekend Andrew... this is only politics so all the best personally.

Aw, so sweet. Hope you have a delightful weekend too :)

So you think the Liberals under Prime Minister Layton are centre-left AND centre-right? OK, I'm done trying to reason with you, you're either insane or a Liberal (not that those are mutually exclusive by any means) but either way there's just no way to reason with you.

Yes,

Martin is Center-right and Center-left... budgets are balanced the total debt declining... that is Center-right. However, social spending is increasing, that is center-left.

Do have a good weekend...

Well written Eugene!

See Eugene, if you'd have come right out at the begining and acknowledged the fact that you're with the delusional fools that think that Paul Martin ever balanced a budget I would have been able to peg you as true Liberal much sooner.

Paul Martin never balanced a damn thing, save maybe a drinking problem (the John Turner parallels continue...) The budgets he claimed were "balanced" actually were bizarre far-right budgets that outsourced the debt unwillingly onto the working poor by pillaging the EI fund.

Politics 101 is clearly ok with screwing over joe-wage-earner, but I'm not. So call me whatever ill-informed names you want Eugene, but you're the one who thinks that Martin's bizarre flip-flopping from facism to communism is "good government."

When the debate turns to implying the Liberals are either Nazis or a Marxists, the debate has gone too far... apologies are in order.

Eugene, your sensationalism and $1.55 will get you an extra large coffee at Tim Hortons. Of course if you drink it I'll point out that your poor taste extends beyond your politics.